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Stepper defect
#2
Postat 03 August 2016 - 01:29 PM
salut,
de ce ai demontat motorul, facea probleme, nu functiona bine ?
daca nu stiai, motorul de tip pas cu pas(stepper), nu trebuie demontat in regim de amator.
prin simpla scoatere a rotorului de pe stator,rotorul se demagnetizeaza(nu complet)si duce la pierderea a 30-50% din puterea motorului.
de ce ai demontat motorul, facea probleme, nu functiona bine ?
daca nu stiai, motorul de tip pas cu pas(stepper), nu trebuie demontat in regim de amator.
prin simpla scoatere a rotorului de pe stator,rotorul se demagnetizeaza(nu complet)si duce la pierderea a 30-50% din puterea motorului.
#5
Postat 04 August 2016 - 10:53 PM
uite cateva raspunsuri pe google :
From Anaheim Automation:
"Q: Is there any damage caused by a stepper motor that is disassembled?
A: Yes! Up to 60% magnetizing loss can be the result if the rotor is pulled apart. If all parts are replaced properly, the motor can be remagnetized at the factory, but the charge is substantial. If you have a motor failure, or are concerned about the performance, contact Anaheim Automation. Please note that the warranty period is 12 months from the date of invoice. "
From ServoRepair.com:
"First, any time a motor is disassembled, there is a high probability that the magnets will be discharged to a point where the torque will be diminished. The results vary and may or may not initially be noticeable. With some motors, the results will be immediate. In fact, disassembly of a stepper motor will typically demagnetize the magnets to a point that the motor is useless until it has been properly remagnetized."
From Lin Engineering:
"Do not disassemble motors; a significant reduction in motor performance will occur."
From a post by Mariis Freimaniss, of Gecko, who knows as much about stepper motors as anyone in the world:
"This topic came up in another group. The stator acts as a magnetic "keeper" for the rotor.
Nothing like running an experiment to know if something is true or not.
I had a motor I didn't care for (MO62-FD04), so I ran dyno tests on it that showed 112 in-oz low-speed torque. I removed the rotor for 5 seconds, then replaced it and re-ran the dyno test.
The low-speed torque now was 70 in-oz, or only 62% of what it was before disassemby.
You may not notice the loss in torque but it is real and it is there.
Mariss"
Disassembly of a stepper motor WILL damage it! Guaranteed!"
From Anaheim Automation:
"Q: Is there any damage caused by a stepper motor that is disassembled?
A: Yes! Up to 60% magnetizing loss can be the result if the rotor is pulled apart. If all parts are replaced properly, the motor can be remagnetized at the factory, but the charge is substantial. If you have a motor failure, or are concerned about the performance, contact Anaheim Automation. Please note that the warranty period is 12 months from the date of invoice. "
From ServoRepair.com:
"First, any time a motor is disassembled, there is a high probability that the magnets will be discharged to a point where the torque will be diminished. The results vary and may or may not initially be noticeable. With some motors, the results will be immediate. In fact, disassembly of a stepper motor will typically demagnetize the magnets to a point that the motor is useless until it has been properly remagnetized."
From Lin Engineering:
"Do not disassemble motors; a significant reduction in motor performance will occur."
From a post by Mariis Freimaniss, of Gecko, who knows as much about stepper motors as anyone in the world:
"This topic came up in another group. The stator acts as a magnetic "keeper" for the rotor.
Nothing like running an experiment to know if something is true or not.
I had a motor I didn't care for (MO62-FD04), so I ran dyno tests on it that showed 112 in-oz low-speed torque. I removed the rotor for 5 seconds, then replaced it and re-ran the dyno test.
The low-speed torque now was 70 in-oz, or only 62% of what it was before disassemby.
You may not notice the loss in torque but it is real and it is there.
Mariss"
Disassembly of a stepper motor WILL damage it! Guaranteed!"
#6
Postat 06 August 2016 - 09:54 PM
am demontat nenumarate steppere, la unele chiar le-am strunjit axul sau cine stie ce adaptari am mai facut
n-a avut nici unul nici pe dracu
in aproape 6 ani de chinuit steppere, unul singur mi-a "cazut", culmea, unul in care nu umblasem deloc
unul dintre rotoare s-a dezlipit de pe ax, nu mai facea corp comun cu axul si se misca fata de ax, generand probleme
am incercat sa-l repozitionez si refixez pe ax dar fara a obtine rezultatele dorite
intradevar, daca vrei sa umbli in pozitia rotoarelor pe ax, sansele de reusita sunt mici
dar o demontare/remontare la nivel de "ax in rulmenti" sau/si "rulmenti in carcasa", atat timp cat ai si minime cunostinte si nu dai cu ciocanul ca sa intre, nu se intampla nimic cu ele
e mai greu sa-l bagi gresit si trebuie sa insisti tare rau ca sa-l deteriorezi la dezasamblare sau asamblare
n-a avut nici unul nici pe dracu
in aproape 6 ani de chinuit steppere, unul singur mi-a "cazut", culmea, unul in care nu umblasem deloc
unul dintre rotoare s-a dezlipit de pe ax, nu mai facea corp comun cu axul si se misca fata de ax, generand probleme
am incercat sa-l repozitionez si refixez pe ax dar fara a obtine rezultatele dorite
intradevar, daca vrei sa umbli in pozitia rotoarelor pe ax, sansele de reusita sunt mici
dar o demontare/remontare la nivel de "ax in rulmenti" sau/si "rulmenti in carcasa", atat timp cat ai si minime cunostinte si nu dai cu ciocanul ca sa intre, nu se intampla nimic cu ele
e mai greu sa-l bagi gresit si trebuie sa insisti tare rau ca sa-l deteriorezi la dezasamblare sau asamblare
---
Gone Sailing! S/Y Haimana
Gone Sailing! S/Y Haimana
#7
Postat 29 August 2016 - 01:29 PM
legat de discutia cu pierderea puterii in cazul desfacerii. am desfacut si eu o groaza de steppere si nu au patit nimic. dar aveti aici un test :)
https://www.youtube....h?v=A4WZm45XJ84
numai bine
https://www.youtube....h?v=A4WZm45XJ84
numai bine
#8
Postat 29 August 2016 - 08:00 PM
klayus, la 29 August 2016 - 01:29 PM, a spus:
legat de discutia cu pierderea puterii in cazul desfacerii. am desfacut si eu o groaza de steppere si nu au patit nimic. dar aveti aici un test :)
https://www.youtube....h?v=A4WZm45XJ84
numai bine
https://www.youtube....h?v=A4WZm45XJ84
numai bine
Sincer sa fiu nici mie nu mi-e clar care este fenomenul fizic datorita caruia un magnet permanent isi pierde proprietatile de generare a campului daca-i scos din "cutia magica". :)
Din cate mi-amintes eu c-am invatat la scoala generala un magnet permanent isi pierde proprietatile prin incalzire sau daca este supus la socuri mecanice.
Deasemenea aveam un aparat care genera el camp magnetic si cu care-mi demagnetizam surubelnitele.
Totusi, niciuna nu mi se pare ca se aplica la simpla demontare si remontare a unui stepper. :blush:
:drinks:
"Cu cat cunosc mai bine oamenii, cu atat iubesc mai mult cainii."
... niste lucrari :)
... niste lucrari :)
#9
Postat 01 September 2016 - 06:49 AM
In mod sigur campul magnetic scade in urma folosirii, altfel ar fi un perpetuum mobile deoarece se tot extrage energie. Stiu ca actionarile cu motoarele de curent continuu cu magneti permanenti trebuiau magnetizate periodic.
Magnetul, rotorul fac un circuit magnetic si ma gandesc ca montarea/ demontarea dezaliniaza liniile de camp suficient probabil cu microni ca sa-i scada randamentul.
Magnetul, rotorul fac un circuit magnetic si ma gandesc ca montarea/ demontarea dezaliniaza liniile de camp suficient probabil cu microni ca sa-i scada randamentul.
#10
Postat 01 September 2016 - 09:51 AM
Aaa da, daca remontarea-i defectuoasa ii clar ca n-o sa mai functioneze la fel... da` atunci nu-i un fenomen fizic ce determina scaderea intensitatii campului magnetic, ii mai degraba o eroare umana.
Cat priveste perpetuum mobile-urile, din pacate pentru noi nu putem produce energie din campuri statice, fie ele magnetice sau electrice, altfel am rezolva cu energia o data pt totdeauna... :).
Cat priveste perpetuum mobile-urile, din pacate pentru noi nu putem produce energie din campuri statice, fie ele magnetice sau electrice, altfel am rezolva cu energia o data pt totdeauna... :).
"Cu cat cunosc mai bine oamenii, cu atat iubesc mai mult cainii."
... niste lucrari :)
... niste lucrari :)
#11
Postat 03 September 2016 - 12:05 AM
n-am desfacut motoare pas cu pas si daca mi s-ar fi parut ca e nevoie as fi trecut la treaba fara prea multe ganduri
dar, daca acum s-a pus problema, cum fizica si logica nu imi sunt chiar straine, cred eu, o sa ii dau cu parerea
fizica:
in general, materialele magnetice sunt sensibile la densitatea de flux magnetic (B ii zicea la scoala) ce trece prin ele. Daca depasesti limitele, strici magnetul
in motor limtele sunt respectate prin geometria ansamblului si intrefier (spatiul intre stator si rotor). Cand il desfaci, cu siguranta strici geometria si il atingi de stator, ocazie cu care densiatea fluxului magnetic are sanse maxime sa cresca mult rau si sa strici magnetul, mai mult sau mai putin.
Cat de tare depinde de prea multe, dar cu siguranta nu mai e ca nou. Cred ca cu cat motorul e mai performant (deci mai la limita din start cu densitatea de flux), cu atat e mai riscant sa il desfaci
logica:
vad asta mult prea des, in cele mai diverse variante: "am mai facut asa si merge"
tot la scola te invata la logica cum ca adevarul implica numai adevarul si falsul implica orice. Asadar, afirmatia de pe randul de mai sus nu are niciun fel de valoare. Dar absolut niciuna, zero, nada, null etc.
Poate un exemplu e mai elocvent: daca o iau la fuga peste Bulevardul Magheru legat la ochi si ajung pe partea cealalta, nu inseamna ca asa se trece strada.
O parea ciudat, dar un test e relevant (adica poti trage o concluzie din el) doar daca e negativ.
Cred ca asta o sa schimbe nitel lucrurile pentru cei ce sunt QA testeri, daca nu si-au pus problema :)
si inca ceva: nu starniti, va rog, din nou tema cu motorul din magneti permanenti...
dar, daca acum s-a pus problema, cum fizica si logica nu imi sunt chiar straine, cred eu, o sa ii dau cu parerea
fizica:
in general, materialele magnetice sunt sensibile la densitatea de flux magnetic (B ii zicea la scoala) ce trece prin ele. Daca depasesti limitele, strici magnetul
in motor limtele sunt respectate prin geometria ansamblului si intrefier (spatiul intre stator si rotor). Cand il desfaci, cu siguranta strici geometria si il atingi de stator, ocazie cu care densiatea fluxului magnetic are sanse maxime sa cresca mult rau si sa strici magnetul, mai mult sau mai putin.
Cat de tare depinde de prea multe, dar cu siguranta nu mai e ca nou. Cred ca cu cat motorul e mai performant (deci mai la limita din start cu densitatea de flux), cu atat e mai riscant sa il desfaci
logica:
vad asta mult prea des, in cele mai diverse variante: "am mai facut asa si merge"
tot la scola te invata la logica cum ca adevarul implica numai adevarul si falsul implica orice. Asadar, afirmatia de pe randul de mai sus nu are niciun fel de valoare. Dar absolut niciuna, zero, nada, null etc.
Poate un exemplu e mai elocvent: daca o iau la fuga peste Bulevardul Magheru legat la ochi si ajung pe partea cealalta, nu inseamna ca asa se trece strada.
O parea ciudat, dar un test e relevant (adica poti trage o concluzie din el) doar daca e negativ.
Cred ca asta o sa schimbe nitel lucrurile pentru cei ce sunt QA testeri, daca nu si-au pus problema :)
si inca ceva: nu starniti, va rog, din nou tema cu motorul din magneti permanenti...
Mircea
Blade 400 3D, Gaui 200V2, Spektrum DX6i 2,4 GHz
Trez 450 Pro FBL, Mikado 400 FBL
Blade 400 3D, Gaui 200V2, Spektrum DX6i 2,4 GHz
Trez 450 Pro FBL, Mikado 400 FBL
#12
Postat 03 September 2016 - 12:53 PM
Subiectul este interesant. Nu ma pricep la electromagnetism asa ca am sapat pe net sa aflu ce spun cei care se pricep. Se pare ca explicatia ar fi ca la demontare, daca se atinge din greseala rotorul de stator, domenii din campul magnetic se "reorienteaza". Cateva opinii aici: From Anaheim Automation:
"Q: Is there any damage caused by a stepper motor that is disassembled?
A: Yes! Up to 60% magnetizing loss can be the result if the rotor is pulled apart. If all parts are replaced properly, the motor can be remagnetized at the factory, but the charge is substantial. If you have a motor failure, or are concerned about the performance, contact Anaheim Automation. Please note that the warranty period is 12 months from the date of invoice. "
From ServoRepair.com:
"First, any time a motor is disassembled, there is a high probability that the magnets will be discharged to a point where the torque will be diminished. The results vary and may or may not initially be noticeable. With some motors, the results will be immediate. In fact, disassembly of a stepper motor will typically demagnetize the magnets to a point that the motor is useless until it has been properly remagnetized."
From Lin Engineering:
"Do not disassemble motors; a significant reduction in motor performance will occur."
From a post by Mariis Freimaniss, of Gecko, who knows as much about stepper motors as anyone in the world:
"This topic came up in another group. The stator acts as a magnetic "keeper" for the rotor.
Nothing like running an experiment to know if something is true or not.
I had a motor I didn't care for (MO62-FD04), so I ran dyno tests on it that showed 112 in-oz low-speed torque. I removed the rotor for 5 seconds, then replaced it and re-ran the dyno test.
The low-speed torque now was 70 in-oz, or only 62% of what it was before disassemby.
You may not notice the loss in torque but it is real and it is there.
Mariss"
Disassembly of a stepper motor WILL damage it! Guaranteed!"
"Q: Is there any damage caused by a stepper motor that is disassembled?
A: Yes! Up to 60% magnetizing loss can be the result if the rotor is pulled apart. If all parts are replaced properly, the motor can be remagnetized at the factory, but the charge is substantial. If you have a motor failure, or are concerned about the performance, contact Anaheim Automation. Please note that the warranty period is 12 months from the date of invoice. "
From ServoRepair.com:
"First, any time a motor is disassembled, there is a high probability that the magnets will be discharged to a point where the torque will be diminished. The results vary and may or may not initially be noticeable. With some motors, the results will be immediate. In fact, disassembly of a stepper motor will typically demagnetize the magnets to a point that the motor is useless until it has been properly remagnetized."
From Lin Engineering:
"Do not disassemble motors; a significant reduction in motor performance will occur."
From a post by Mariis Freimaniss, of Gecko, who knows as much about stepper motors as anyone in the world:
"This topic came up in another group. The stator acts as a magnetic "keeper" for the rotor.
Nothing like running an experiment to know if something is true or not.
I had a motor I didn't care for (MO62-FD04), so I ran dyno tests on it that showed 112 in-oz low-speed torque. I removed the rotor for 5 seconds, then replaced it and re-ran the dyno test.
The low-speed torque now was 70 in-oz, or only 62% of what it was before disassemby.
You may not notice the loss in torque but it is real and it is there.
Mariss"
Disassembly of a stepper motor WILL damage it! Guaranteed!"
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